Find Your Ride or Die: Managing Relationships in Business and in Love with Carmen Ortiz-McGhee
Victoria Jenn welcomes Carmen Ortiz-McGhee, the COO of the National Association of Investment Companies (NAIC), where she oversees programs, partnerships, and a vast membership managing over $260 billion in capital.
Together they dig into the essence of leadership, authenticity, and the power of vulnerability. Plus, Carmen candidly discusses her perspectives on mindset intimacy, its complexities, and how it ties into both personal and professional growth.
In this episode, Victoria Jenn and Carmen Ortiz-McGhee discuss:
Carmen's transformative journey, from studying psychology to championing Latino businesses.
The balance between vulnerability and intimacy, and how to create true safe spaces in relationships and the workplace.
Overcoming the external pressures and challenges faced by Latinos, and leveraging those experiences to foster success.
Authentic relationship-building as a cornerstone for both personal and professional development.
The vital role of small businesses in Latino communities, and how they're a game-changer for access to education, better healthcare, and more.
Tune in to immerse yourself in a candid and empowering conversation that navigates the intricacies of Latino entrepreneurship, vulnerability, and being your authentic self in every space you enter.
About Carmen Ortiz-McGhee:
Trail-blazing executive and unwavering advocate Carmen Ortiz-McGhee is the COO of the National Association of Investment Companies (NAIC), where she oversees programs, partnerships, and a vast membership managing over $260 billion in capital. Raised by a single Puerto Rican mother, Carmen has been a lifelong advocate for underserved communities. She's been honored by Business Insurance Magazine and featured in the ground-breaking book "The Lighthouse Effect." Carmen, a psychology grad from the University of Virginia, is a recognized speaker on topics like inclusive leadership and wealth creation. She sits on multiple boards, championing a more inclusive society.
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Full Transcript:
What's up everybody, welcome to Banking on Cultura, where we talk about the complexity and the vibrancy of Latino culture, entrepreneurship, and of course, all the bon chinche in between. Now today, I have an esteemed guest who, y'all, I don't even know where to start with this one because this is like someone I admired as A kid like in my twenties, I would see her out and about and I would just be like in awe and be like, Oh my God, I want to be just like her.
And it's so crazy how your, you know, icons, people that you truly admire and look up to, you get to work with them and collaborate with them in the future, y'all. So I'm just super pumped about today's episode and for you guys all to meet the one, the only. Carmen Ortiz-McGhee Welcome to Banking on Cultura.
Well, thank you for that amazing introduction. And I'm humbled. I'm humbled for all the words that you used to describe me. It's been such a joy getting to know you better and having this opportunity to sit here and talk. Yes. And Bochinte y
todo lo que va a pasar. Todo, todo. I love it. You know, I want to start with, first of all, how you and I got acquainted because You did not know me, although I know you, I knew who you were and I was like, Oh my God, I would see you at these events.
So you guys, I grew up on Wall Street. So that's where I started my career. Carmen is like a Wall Street legend taking over the space. Her name rings bells. And I would see her at networking events all the time. And I would remember I would be in the corner. I'd be like, yo, she's working that room like she is killing it.
And I didn't see many women who look like me. In these rooms, didn't have the curly hair, the curves, like, just literally look like she was from the cultura. And I know when I saw her at events, I would immediately feel like, okay, I belong here. Like I'm Gucci, Carmen's here. So I'm good. And I remember back then in my 20s when I would see her and I would talk to my mentor, Pilar Avilar.
And I would be like, yo, Bilal, I gotta figure out how to work with Carmen. I gotta figure out, like, how to make this happen. And for years, we would, like, see each other. And I would, like, talk to Carmen for, like, two seconds. But, you know, she's badass. She got a lot of people coming at her. She was not worried about me at that time.
But it's okay. That's how you plant the seed. seeds, honey. That is how you plant the seeds. Um,
and I always remembered you. Oh, thank you.
And, um, fast forward. We got reacquainted in Napa. Yes. Um, shout out to the hive. Yes. And, um, The first year that I saw you there, we kind of chit chatted over salsa. I remember and we exchanged some emails afterwards.
I was like, Carmen, I got to get this corporate money like hook it up. Let's see years ago. And, uh, we just we were in communication didn't happen. And then this past year in Napa, we met again and we were both in it. I would say different periods in our lives. Mm-hmm. I now an entrepreneur. Mm-hmm. no longer, you know, an employee.
Been in the game now six years. Congratulations. Thank you. Mm-hmm. . And . We got reacquainted because we're at dinner. Yes. And Carmen has been married how
long now? 26 years. Carmen
has been married 26 years, y'all. Okay. Congrats to Carmen on that because that is no easy feat. Okay. And she was at the table and did I ask you the question when I was like, Hey, can you give us some advice?
You did, because my, my anniversary was coming up. That's right. And you said, Oh my God, that's amazing. What advice would you give to those of us who are, you know, trying to build these relationships, you know, hope to have that kind of longevity? Um, and so I shared a few. Tidbits with you.
Yes. And it was, it was, you know, it was one of those moments where we got to know each other personally.
Yes. Yes.
And we never had that opportunity. I think that we'd really talked about just about personal things, right? Most of the other conversations had been more business oriented, career focused, but it was, it was the first time we'd had a personal conversation.
Totally. And it was such a. Breath of fresh air.
And I think that allowed for us to see each other in a completely different light. Yes. Um, grow respect for one another. Yes. And, um, and now we're here. . Yes. I know. I'm banking and we, yeah. Yes. I'm baking on ura. Um, but I, I wanted to share that with the audience because it was a really great lesson for me in understanding relationships and how significant it is.
For you to try your best to humanize those interactions, because when you're able to connect with someone on a genuine level, it just allows for a different way for your relationship to foster versus the traditional way where it's like super stuffy, formal business. I mean, there's obviously a time and a place for that as well, but I truly believe that when you're able to connect on a personal level, it just puts you in a different, a different category
altogether.
Well, it allows the possibilities. Right. To flourish. And I'll say from my end, you know, much of my career, and I'm sure we'll talk about it. I was always very managed. Right. I was very, very closed in terms of who I would open myself to. And I would show the more fun, the more levity, the more real right side of myself.
And for whatever reason, in that moment in Napa, I was open. Right. And I wanted to get to know more about you. We had been seeing each other for so many years now. And I, I, I opened myself with intention to allow for these possibilities to unfurl and I'm so glad I did. Me
too. Me too. We had a moment. We did.
We did. We had many moments in Napa. It was beautiful. It was. So we like to kick off the show with a segment called What's the Bon Chinche? So give us the scoop. What's the tea? What's the
latest and greatest? So when we talked about this, we talked about me sharing those tidbits, right? And I'm going to say this.
I'm going to preface it. This is the world according to Carmencita, okay? These are my, my perspectives and what has helped me in my relationship. Um, but yes, 26 years in, my husband and I met in college and, um, you know, I fell in love immediately. But I would tell you that the three things that have helped us navigate All of the twists and turns, the ups and downs, the light periods and dark periods of marriage, because it has all of those things in it, have been first.
Real, genuine communication. And when I say that, I mean that both people, no matter how hard the message is, on the other side, are open to really hearing what the other is telling them, right? That your partner may be sharing something that they're not happy with, something that's difficult for them about how you show up in the relationship, right?
And none of us like that, right? I mean, that's That's a little painful and you're like, but oh, it, it, it, right? That's a little too real. Me? I'm not perfect? What are you know, I
understand. But the ability to really hear my husband and to know that he was really hearing me has allowed us to really navigate some of the toughest things that life has thrown at us.
So the bochincha is you just celebrated an anniversary. We did. We did. June 18th. Yeah. So, um, you know me, I like to Again, you know me, I like to get, you know, beyond the surface because everybody says communication, right? Everybody says that, uh, but it's so just as important as communication is also keeping the fire alive.
Oh yes. Right. And making sure things are spicy and making sure things are fun, et cetera. So what's your advice for that?
So the second thing that we talked about, if you recall, was intimacy, right? And so normally people think about intimacy as The heat and the, so I'm going to give you the high level, you know, quick answers, right?
The quick answers are you take care of yourself, right? You keep yourself and you, you're healthy. Your energy is right and positive and engaged. You um, you know, you're open and adventurous together in the ways that those things, you know, make sense for the relationship. Um, but I'm going to tell you even more important than all of that because.
You know, life is real, right? And you start out every relationship starts out hot and exciting and, you know, wonderful, uh, but life gets real life gets heavy, right? Especially when you bring kids into it and you start buying homes and responsibilities. My husband's an entrepreneur, right? He's got the weight of building a company, um, on his shoulders.
I would tell you, um, The thing that has kept it so solid and so, um, allowed us to continue the spice is the intimacy. And when I say that, I mean, we are able to be super intimate. Vulnerable with each other, like in a raw and scary way, right? And it's a risk and you don't like taking it, but that, that, um, that vulnerability is like a key to everything because you, you have a true safe space, right?
Right. So you get to be who you are in all of the ways and in all of the places and in all of the times fully and 100 percent knowing that you're not being judged, that you're being loved. Right. And that there's no risk of loss, right? Because you might do something a little left of center, or you might say something a little left of center, or you might feel something that isn't, you know, politically correct to feel.
Right. Or relationshiply correct to feel. Right. Right. And, um, and so that, that closeness and that safety is. It's everything.
I love that you say that because when people think intimacy, they immediately think physical. Right. Right. Uh, and so I love that you are sharing that. So I got some bonchiche. Oh, tell me.
So the bonchiche is darling, that your girl has lost 16 pounds. Ah, yes. Your girl has lost 16 pounds since I came back from Costa Rica. I love it. Cause your girl turned 40 this year and I was like, okay, we gotta get, we gotta get it all the way together. Mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually.
spiritually. Um, and so this journey has been really interesting because my palate has like changed. Now I'm not like yearning for like super fatty foods. I'm like very more conscious of what I'm putting in my mouth. I'm moving lighter. You know, I'm I'm making it changes everything. That's like extra motivation.
Like girl, you got camera, you know, camera, extra 10 pounds, like get it together. I got all types of motivations going on right now. Um, but really excited about that and really proud of myself. You know, yes, should be. And it's been simple. You know, people will be like, how'd you do it? I simple, not eating bad exercising.
That's it. And
water. It's not. And look, the formulas are there. It's the same thing we've always known. Exactly. Exactly. Just have a lot of complicated, like, you know, programs and, you know,
marketers coming out here, you know, companies got to. Make some money off of your insecurities and your quick fix.
Yeah.
And the pressures. Exactly. The pressures that we all feel, right? To show up a certain way in the world.
Totally. Which we're gonna break down today. Yes.
so, introduce who you are to the folks. Because we learned a little bit personal side and we'll probably circle back on this. Yeah. Um, but introduce Carmen.
Yeah. So Carmen, the executive is an improbable executive, right? Not SAT words.
Yeah.
She is an improbable executive. So I, um, so I'm chief operating officer of an organization called the National Association of Investment Companies. And in fact, we're here in, in New York for one of the events that we're hosting.
And, um, And so I started out, I majored in psychology. My passion was helping people. I had launched an organization in college to help Latino students, American Latino students, get into institutions of higher learning. Um, that was my thing. It was the, it was the advocacy, the helping. I wanted zero to do with business and far less to do with finance, surprisingly, right?
Given where I am today, um, and so, you know, life has its twists and its turns. I started my career at the U. S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce because they had a scholarship program that I thought I was going to be super involved with. But as life would have it, my roles, you know, changed and focused more on that advocacy piece and the, and the creating access and opportunities for.
Latino owned businesses, right? And that's where I really understood the importance of our small businesses to our communities to changing the wealth trajectory, to creating more access to education, to creating more access to better health care and all of the things that when our communities have successful businesses owned by people who look like them, though, that You know, those doors open up for them.
So that's become my passion. And so I, I, I've been doing that for the almost the entire balance of my career. But I find I found myself, um, and Pilar Avila, also my mentor, as you know, um, she had left to start a new organization called the New America Alliance, uh, which was, It's a moment in time for me that completely changed my understanding of what was possible.
This was a group of Latino, uh, I mean, power brokers. I mean,
loaded, okay? Like some of the wealthiest Latinos in
the country. And most influential. Yeah. And, and strategic and brilliant. And, um, their ability. For a relatively small group of individuals, I mean, I think at the height, I had 100 members, right? Um, to move the needle in powerful ways, um, was just, I was blown away because like you, I'd never seen people like me.
At that level, you know, and so that was where I had my first exposure to finance. Uh, there was an, a particular initiative, we called it the pension fund initiative. And this was where we advocated for Latino asset managers. Right. And again, mind blown eyes opened and I knew that I wanted to be a part of that space.
And so I threw myself into learning, um, you know, many of my friends in the industry will tell you back then I was a sponge and I was asking questions all of the time and I was really absorbing, sitting in the front row at conferences, trying to understand everything, um, that I could and what I didn't, I would ask and I would text in the middle.
It didn't matter, you know, what time of day, right? I was always, um, you know, googling and researching and asking and really trying to learn my understanding because I was so behind the curve, right? Um, I was not exposed to the world of finance until I was in my early thirties. And so early thirties, I know don't, don't start counting the years.
Noel. Okay. No. A hassle. But, um, but anyway, uh, and those relationships, you know, yeah. Um, have led to where I am today. Uh, my c e O today for new, for N A I C. Um, this is our second time working together. And it has been an amazing experience. We've grown the organization like 400 percent in the last five years across all of the metrics, the number of members, and we have over 40 Latino firms, by the way.
And these are firms that are like. Private equity investors, venture capital investors, hedge fund investors, um, you know, private credit, which is a newer asset class. These are some of the most accomplished and brilliant people of color and women. I mean, I would argue in the world, but certainly in business and in the world of finance.
Um, and so I, I work in a space where we advocate for them. We open doors for them. And it has been such an incredible honor. Right. To serve that community in a way that's meaningful and helpful and moves the needle forward. So,
we have now established that you put in yourself equity, you've got the credibility, and you also were a part of an industry that is heavily male dominated.
And not many folks of color are at the higher ranks. And so I want to break down politics. Because I think there's a lot to be said about corporate politics. In finance specifically, but also a lot of transferable things that can be translated to the entrepreneur side, because regardless of what you do, we always play in politics one way or another 100%.
So I want to break this down with how you've been able to be taken seriously in an industry that a looks as woman as the help as the support, especially Latino, right? And also super male dominated. Um, with eagles with, yeah,
so I
want to be diplomatic here. I'm not carbon. Let's
go diplomatic with all of the
things that they bring with all the things that they bring.
Um, I want to talk about how you were able. To position yourself as an expert in this space, gain respect as a Latina, as a beautiful Latina, as a curvy Latina, as a Latina, when you walk into the room, uh, you get noticed, darling. So, how have you been able to navigate that space?
Yeah, you know, it's um, It's an interesting, it's been an interesting journey and the very, very first thing, um, was for me was to be excellent, right?
I had to be substantive because whatever doors open for you, right? As a woman, um, as you very kindly said, you know, an attractive woman, once you get in the door, then what? Right? How do you stay in? How do you become a part of of the movement of the work of the interesting projects of the how do you continue to grow professionally?
Right? And so, um, so excellence was was the one thing. And so I worked, you know, harder than everyone else. Like I told you, I would take advantage of all of the resources available to me. Um, I would build relationships. Authentic relationships with, um, decision makers and kind of, you know, power brokers and like the folks that I thought, um, could really help me grow and would say my name in rooms when I wasn't there.
Right. But I had to give them something good to say. So that's why I always go back to excellence and substance is baseline. Right.
But what does excellence mean? What does that mean? Like you're the most prepared. Like, what does that mean? It means all
of that. Right. It means you're the most prepared. It means you do all of the little things that make you, that make your work effective, credible.
So I'll, you know, small things. I would read my emails like multiple times, make sure all of my grammar was correct. Make sure my periods, commas, and semicolons were in the right places multiple times. All of the words were the right words, the tone was the right tone before I sent it out, right? I would put myself in positions that were uncomfortable, right?
Um, I started public speaking very early and it was terrifying, right? Um, and so I would prepare and I would review and review. I mean, just even if it was sponsor remarks. Um, like recognizing sponsors, I knew what I was going to say and it was going to be meaningful and substantive about their contribution to the organization and how it had impact.
I made sure that everything that I did was thorough and tight and right,
polished, polished, polished. 100 percent of 100%. I don't know what is polished made out of oil. Yes. Probably
different guys. So we get the point. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Um, so Polish was, was, it was, you know, it was everything. Okay. The other thing that I did, um, is that I built authentic relationships with folks, right?
People didn't see me coming and roll their eyes thinking, Oh my God, here it goes. She's going to ask for, you know, she's going to ask for an introduction. She's going to ask for, you know, a promotion. She's going to, no, no, no. Like I was like, Hey, how's your family doing? You told me such and such last time that, you know, Jimmy was graduating.
How did it go? What was the, because I was truly. Truly interested people have psychology major, right? I love people, right? And I was always it was always important to me to build relationships that would last beyond whatever position I was in at the time. And so I made sure I did that, but I did it strategically with the right folks.
So let's let's break that down My memory. I feel like I have selective memory.
You know it's one of those situations where you never know who's watching, right? And then all these years later we're here and now you have all those memories? Yes.
But I'm telling you, have selective memory because I'll remember certain things about people and completely forget everything else.
So. I know you are a psychology major. Yes. So you were generally interested? Yes. But for those of us who have selective memory Yeah. And who, so I truly believe that part of relationship management mm-hmm. is understanding those little intricacies about people. Mm-hmm. , yes. Their family stuff. Something personal.
Totally. Something that they hold near and dear to their heart. Mm-hmm. , whenever you get that little nugget. Mm-hmm. . Did you have any type of process to remember these things because you met so many people on a constant
basis, you know, and so this is the benefit and I'm much better. I was much better at it then than I am now, right?
I'll blame it on the Children. I have three kids, right? Like, so my memory got worse, worse with each one. Um, I'm sorry. Yeah.
Married 28 years, three kids, 26. Oh, 26. My bad, my bad. 26 years. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Three kids, badass executive, like, I'm sorry. Okay,
continue. Sorry. So what were your tips to help remember?
No, so, you know, I mean, honestly, there were, um, I just, I was blessed with a photographic memory. I can't even act like I had a process. I had, you know, whatever. You're gifted. I just, I, no, I, you know, I just, I just, I remember, and not only that, but listen, I really wanted to, and I was fascinated by them. As I think about the people that I have been blessed to spend time with.
That I have been blessed to receive guidance and counsel from. They were fascinating. Carmen. No,
te lo juro. You've never come across anyone that was super boring, but you had to build some type of relationship with them because of business purposes.
Okay, maybe once or twice. Okay.
Don't be acting like everybody out here is amazing.
No, they're not. I mean, a lot. There are a lot
of people. I did that more in corporate than I did in my, in my world. In my world, most people are genuinely fascinating. But in corporate, you know, um, it's really interesting in corporate. Um, and when I met those folks, it was really more about the value, right.
And you know, because everyone has an agenda. Right? Everyone has an agenda. So how do you make it so that your agenda and there's a line, right? And so at that point, you're not ever going to connect with someone that you find painfully boring or painfully uninteresting, or you can't remember from one meeting to the next one quarterly meeting to the next.
Um, but what is really important is to figure out if you have to connect with this person, what are the things that, that matter to both of you? Right? How is it that you can you can add value to whatever it is they're trying to accomplish and motivate them to support you in your efforts? Um, And so, you know, I think about when I was, I had just joined this company.
And by the way, I joined, you know, a company that I barely knew what they did when I joined. Um, I joined at an executive vice president level. Um, so I think at the time I was two or three to the CEO. Um, You know, and I was in a role where I was exposed to many leaders. Right. Now, I brought a series of assets that no one else had, right?
So my access to this world of diverse financial services, my access to very senior level individuals within corporations, right? And, and real access, because again, I spent a career building authentic relationships. Um. You know, others didn't, didn't have that, right? They had different access points or they were very superficial connection points.
And so I knew how to bring those to bear in strategic ways. So I'll give you an example. I was, there was an opportunity. Uh, in fact, the, the, the members of new American alliance were coming to Chicago, which is where the company was based and they were having, you know, a big event. And I was like, well, let me host it.
Let me host it at the top of our corporate building. Right. We have this beautiful space, you know, we're going to host this event. And they were all, by the way, potential clients, right? No one else on my team had ever done anything like that before. So the gentleman who was the head of national sales at the time, his mind is blown that someone on this team has access to these sorts of individuals.
Um, at this level, with the level of influence, you start researching any of the folks who were members of New America Alliance at the time. And it was, you know, again, I mean, wildly impressive. And so now he's looking at me very differently. So this gentleman and I always talk about, you know, you talk about mentors and sponsors.
He was a sponsor for me, but this gentleman who I'm a five foot one Moriqua, right? This is a six foot nine white guy from the Midwest. Right? We couldn't be more different on the surface, you know, if you, um, if you tried, right? If you see no BSF pintao and so, um, but he saw my excellence, the genuineness of my connections and access and my ability to close the loop.
Right. And so now when an opportunity came to be promoted into another role, leadership in the business, I was the name that he dropped, right? And so he and I never became friends. He and I, we've lost contact in the years that have passed since then. But I was, I made an impression on him because of my excellence, because of my genuine connections and because I knew how to bring something to a close.
Flex, straight flexing. I love it. Okay. So how have you, because you are able to, you know, drop a little flex here and there and have this access and have this. Excellence, intellect to match, energy to match. I'm pretty sure you intimidate a lot of folks, women and men. So in your world, how have you been able to navigate that?
You know, it's so funny because I have been told that. Right. I've absolutely been told that, that I'm intimidating, which I think is crazy. Right. Same. I'm like, what? Yeah. I think I'm like, but I'm so nice. Right. What are You know, I love people. Come give me a hug. Yeah. You know, um. So the thing is, you know, I think there are moments you have to choose your moments to flex, right?
Um, and the thing is, if you've, if you have built your career the right way, everyone knows you don't have to flex, right? Because of the way you've moved, because of the speaking engagements that you've had. You might be leading a panel here or there at some major conference. You know, um, when they show up at an event, you're in the VIP, you know, whatever.
There's... There's, um, you know, the, the, the body of work that organizations grew under your leadership, um, you know, that new doors and new horizons were opened under your leadership, right? Um, you, you leave a trail of evidence, right? Right. Um, and so you don't have to. And so what I, what I try to do, and it, it is not always effective, but what I try to do is to just be really human.
Right? And to show up open and warm, to ask questions, to put the focus on the other person, right? Tell me about you. I would love to know your work. You know, Oh, we, we can talk about me some other time. We, I want to hear about you. And people love when they feel seen. Right. And when they feel valued and when their story is validated, right?
Um, and I've always, always tried, um, to connect with women in particular. Um, because There's, there are just additional dynamics there that, um, you know, they can go one way or another, right? And so, um, I, I remember one story. In fact, there was a woman on my team at this place that I, I was describing earlier and in the very first lunch we had, in the very first lunch we had, she felt it necessary because of my trail of evidence to put me in my place.
And so she said, um, well, you know, the CEO of our team doesn't think that I'm going to like you. First meeting, right? She's putting, she just drops it like, drops it like that, right? Like, okay. Right. I don't, he doesn't. So my response to her was, well, I would hope that at this level you would develop your own opinion on me based on experience and not what other, someone else may have determined for us.
And I said, besides, I come from the school of thought. Where women who don't support each, there's a very special place for, in hell for women who don't support each other. Ooh, spicy. Right? And, um, and I mean that, I believe that. I think it is too hard out here for women, right? To advance, to succeed, to, to get to the next level, to grow and build, for us not to be supportive of each other.
Right? It's, um, it's just, it's, it, to me it's un, Inconceivable that we wouldn't do that, but unfortunately it exists and you know, over time again, because I proved myself, because I was, you know, a top performer on the team because of all of those things, she eventually came around and now we have a wonderful.
What was the response
though? When you said that?
I mean, she just had to sit back, sit back and put her cup down. What are you going to say to that? Right? What are you going you going to say? I mean, she literally, se cayó, se cayó, and she was just like, kind of nodding at me. And I was like, right. Cause you picked the wrong one.
I love it. Right? You picked the wrong one. Right? Um, and so
I love when Carmen gets
into this mode right here, you did you thought you thought one thing right? Um, but you know, like that, that whole that kind of chip on your shoulder, right? You know, I think it's it's one of the gifts that we have as Latinos.
Right? Because it has been harder for us because we do have to navigate all of the time, the places and moments where we've been underestimated, where we've been marginalized, you know, and somehow we've still find ourselves here. And so in those moments, it is important to, to, to, to, um, leverage those experiences and leverage that spice, right?
To let people know, Oh no, no, no. We won't be doing that. Mm-hmm. , we will not be doing that today, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, because they'll, they'll, they'll, that, that negative engagement will continue if you allow it.
And how have you been able to master that delivery? Because that is experience and strategy all in its own, how you are able to keep your composure and, you know, kind of like, you know, not tell you're telling it like it is, but you're doing it in a way where it like,
it's like, uh, and you're like,
oh, but then it's like, Right. Yes. Because we're both women, so we should support each other, right? Because I'm down to do that. Yes, yes, yes.
Right? So this happened with experience. Yeah, it is. This is
how you've been able to get by. And you observe. Man, I think the, the best way for anyone to learn, and I, I mean, learn from others.
Watch the people, watch the people you admire, right? See how they speak, see the words they choose, see how they react in tense and uncomfortable situations, right? Um, and learn and, and, and mimic. And grow your own, you know, style of doing that, but that's, I mean, 100%. I've just, again, I've, I've, I've been in these places where I've seen so many people handle adversity and handle, um, you know, others trying to make less of them, right?
With, um, grace and effectiveness and, um, and strength, right? And so, yeah, I mean, it's, you don't, you don't come into the world, I don't think, um, Having that, and sometimes you can overdo it because your chip is like, Aperate un momentito. What, what, what, what was that? No, no, no. Oh, you're going to know today.
Oh, you're going to know today. Right. And where does that get you? Right. Right. That's literally, it's a terrible way because at that point now you're shutting doors. You're turning people off. You're closing them. And it's not an effective way to get them on your side or to at least leave the, the opening.
For a relationship to evolve. Right? Um, and listen, I, I did, I made all of those mistakes, right? I made all of those mistakes when I was young and, um, and more hardheaded than I am today. And, you know, uh, it's, it is, it's truly experience and wisdom and, and being willing to learn from the mistakes of others or, or the wonderful examples of them.
So I want to talk about how you've been able to navigate. Men who invite you to a meeting and you can sense I think we have, you know, women have this Gut feeling about things. We have this special intuition, which I believe is a competitive advantage, right? We know when we are invited to something because of our look, because of our entertainment value, um, because of our ability to smile and make a gentleman feel good about himself.
So how have you been able to navigate those moments where you knew you're at a meeting? And you knew homeboy's looking at you like, how can I sleep with this
woman? So, um, so first of all, you pick when you go and when you don't go, right? Cause you don't say yes to every invitation. You absolutely don't say yes to every invitation and you weigh that out.
Right. Is. Is the dance that you're going to have to do if you sit in that situation worth whatever, you know, value, um, you might, or, you know, whatever value you might be able to extract from that situation. Um, again, I think language and I think comportment, right, how you show up, um, is everything. Uh, I, you know, one of my favorite phrases, you know, when people start becoming.
overly complimentary, right? Is you're so kind, just like that. I
get cute. You're so,
you're so kind, right? Because you're, you're, you're, it, it, it shuts down the, um, the edge with which they're trying to come at you. Right? It shuts it down and nullify, like you don't, it's almost like you don't even know what they're doing.
You completely know what they're doing, but that's, but you're not, you're not, you're not entertaining that. Right? You're so kind. That's, that's just awfully nice of you to say. Right? And then you either make an exit, right? Or you continue and, and, and when, um, And again, I, I did this throughout my career and we always hear in this day and age, um, don't turn yourself down.
You should, you should be able to bring your full self to work. I often chose not to, right? Uh, because it makes it easier not to, right? It makes it, um, because you have less of that to deal with, right? So for much of my career, and you may remember this for much of my career, I showed up with my hair in a bun, very little makeup.
Gray, black or brown suits, right? Always a jacket, always a suit, right? Um, I would, uh, I would, and, and, and I recommend this period always leave after the business dinner, right? Always leave after the, because after the business dinner is done, right? The dinner at that. That's it. That's business is done, right?
So anything that happens after that is likely not going to advance anything, not your career, not whatever effort you're having the business dinner for, right, that that leaves doors open to complications and things to go left of center, right? Um, and for me, the risk of not being taken seriously, of my reputation being damaged.
Was, because I was, I was seen here or, you know, um, or someone overheard me engaging. I mean, right, that like, that's absolutely not worth it. Right? Not worth it. Whatever fun I'm going to have. Look, I got friends. Right? I got friends. I have an amazing husband. I have, like, I've got all that, that's, that's where my fun stays, right?
That's where I show up in all of my full selfness, right? With my friends, with my husband, with my, in my personal life. Um, and I think if you observe women at the top, right? You will notice there's a tremendous consistency around that, consistency around that, right? They don't show up in all of their full selfness.
Because they understand the game, right? They understand that if they want to get to that top level, they've got to be taken seriously, right? And everybody doesn't need to know, you know, Jenny from the block. Right. I prefer to myself that way. Me too. Listen, when
I be working out, I'll be like, JLo, JLo, JLo, JLo.
But I'm
just saying, because I am, right? I had humble beginnings, right? Humble beginnings, super, super proud of my Puerto Rican roots, right? I have, and I've got all of the spice and everything that comes with it, right? Um. And, and, you know, and then there, it, you've got to do that sort of cost benefit analysis, right?
Is it worth it? I know you hate it because I know what you're about to say, the system and all this stuff. But I'm trying to tell you, the system is there, it's real. It is very real. In addition to, by the way, human nature. Mmm. Because all systems are built with people. Mmm. And all the things that are wrong and messed up.
About systems are because of the people in them that lead them and drive them. Mm
hmm, right? so I love having this conversation with you because I used to be in your world. I grew up in corporate, grew up in financial services. I had mentors tell me, Victoria, your suit is too damn tight. You need to loosen up.
Don't wear heart earrings. They're not going to take you seriously. Um, you know, pin your hair back. Don't, your hair is a distraction. Don't wear it. And at the time I was just excited to be on Wall Street. So I was like, okay, let me loosen this up a little bit. You know, let me play the game. And it wasn't until I stepped out on my own that I truly was able to see from a macro view.
How me playing the game was actually doing a disservice to myself and also to anyone who was coming behind me Because now we're continuing to oil the same machine and continuing to allow for this systemic oppression Because now we're playing along We're not putting a stick in the ground. We're not saying no, we're going to move this way.
We're not Allowing ourselves to be brave and courageous enough to break outside of that norm. Now, some women are. I've seen that as well. Like, you'll see it. You'll see little spunks of pink here. Like, you'll see hoop earrings here. And I think little by little, in our own way, all of us are trying to figure out how we want to show up in the world.
But when you speak to like women that are at these levels, remember everything they had to go through and how much they were preconditioned. In order to reach that level, right? So now they are now mentoring people saying, Hey, this is how I did it. So this is how you got to do it. Because I understand how I understand what's happening
over here, right?
I think it's a choice, right? So I, I, you know, I disagree with you, right? I, um, my view. is that if we're in this game of corporate America or this game of career advancement, right? What is the end game, right? Is the end game to be your whole self or is the end game to win, right? Is the end game to grow your influence, your revenues, your access, your, your ability.
To drive change in the systems that you impact right and so I I don't think And I would not recommend, right, now this is me and I am one of those seasoned women, right, who had to go through everything she went through, right, um, but I would never recommend to everyone, to anyone, right, to, um, to show up in a way that wouldn't be taken, so why would you do that?
Like, why would you, what is the benefit? Are you, do you think that doors are going to open for you, or do you think that people are going to, When you're not around, be like, whoa, why would, what was up with those heart earrings? I mean, who does that? Like, she's Right. And so that's more harmful because of human nature, mi amor.
Human nature. And it's not even a system. We can call it a system. We can call it whatever. Yes, those things exist, but it's the human nature piece of it, which has not changed. I don't think since the like, you know, since the formation of civilization, right? Human nature is what it is. And people think what they think and they move as they move.
Now, do we evolve? Sure, we do, because both of us are sitting here on this program with our curly hair all the way out. Mm hmm. Right? And this is how I show up at all of my meetings and my amends. There's a bit of rebel in me, right? There's a bit of rebel in me, and, and again.
Now that you, yes, reached a
certain level,
exactly, but when you were in the trenches, when I was in the trenches, black, gray,
black, gray, brown hair on a bun or straightened, right?
Our straightened. And even then the straightened, because my hair was usually long. I would change it throughout. I did a lot of changing, um, my look throughout my career, but it was normal. It was, you know, it was usually straight and a bun, you know, just. Yeah. Locked down tight. Yes. Right. So now I am at a place and I'm, I'm again blessed it to be where I am, um, that I'm a proven, I am a proven, um, entity, right?
And, and my contributions are measurable right to where I am today. Right. And the value that my. Um, you know, my, my CEO, my board, the membership, um, assigned to me are very real, right? But I'll tell you that even earlier in my career, when I would, um, you know, try to do the kitten heels or, you know, the sort of, you know, natural manicures or the, there was a part of me that was, that was, um, Like it dies a little bit, right?
It dies a little bit, but what is the risk benefit analysis, right? Is the risk of showing up this way, right? Showing up this way with all of my, with now the curls, you know. I mean, this is, this is what I am, right? This is what I am. At some point I got tired, my hair started becoming damaged because of all the heat of straightening it.
I just, I just stopped with that. But I had to make a decision as to whether I wanted to be taken seriously or whether I wanted to be me in the workplace.
I hear you. And I think a lot of folks go back and forth with it, especially people of color, right? Because we have all types of cultural influences.
Our people, our family telling us, put your head down. Don't, don't be seen. You don't want to be seen. Just do your work. You want to be recognized for that. Don't be loud. Don't stand out. That doesn't work, etc. That is, it doesn't work, but we carry that into the workplace. And then on top of that, we also have now all of these.
politics at play. We also have now whatever the culture has been built in terms of what is professional and how you do need to look and speak in order to be taken seriously. But it's interesting because the same business case for how We want to do this risk analysis and human nature and how that hasn't shifted.
I mean, you can say, then why are we pressing so hard on DEI initiatives? Because if it's human nature and it is going to be what it is, then so
I don't think those are no. So I think those are two completely different things. I think the ability to be your full self and the ability and the importance of including.
People of all different backgrounds and, and, and walks of life and experience sets. That's two totally different things. 100%, 100%. Is it because
being inclusive is inclusive of people's differences?
But people's differences, I'm going to argue. So I just talked about the gentleman that was six foot nine and you know, from the Midwest and I'm five one from Puerto Rico, right?
Those differences are what the differences are, right? They're, they're excluding me based on the fact that I'm five one and from Puerto Rico is different than excluding me because I showed up completely inappropriately dressed for an occasion at work. Because those are, those are different choices.
Those are, that's a completely different
thing. Absolutely. When in Rome, do as Romans do. When you have to play the game, you have to play the game. There's an
amazing book. Uh huh. There's an amazing book. Uh, and it's called, and, and they, I think it's like on a, it's an older book, but it's a fantastic book called Empower Yourself, the Organizational Game Revealed by a gentleman named Harvey Coleman, right?
And it breaks society into this pyramid, seven levels, right? The Carnegies and the Rockefellers and probably now the Bezos and the, you know, Musks at the top. Yeah. And, um. You know, and then, you know, poverty, like poverty stricken folks at the bottom and it characterizes all of the ways that these people show up in life and at work and in, you know, how they entertain and how they dress and like all of these different things, right?
I it's a book I recommend that everyone read because it allows you to, it, it gives you the insights that you may not have about the different levels and it gives you the choice. Okay. Yes. So do you want to be here? Okay. Well, then this is what's required.
Better. I will add to this and then we can move on because I know you and I, we can be a whole nother hack and
solve.
I love it.
Uh, but. There are so many things that are happening now that would go against that narrative because now we're finding people that are able to achieve success by literally being who they are. Yes. And I know this is outside of finance industry, right? And so you have to be mindful of where you're choosing to play.
Sure. Right. Sure. But I give the example of like Cardi B. Cardi B came on the scene completely herself, completely to
the world of like entertainment,
in the world of entertainment, social media, correct. But now she's got the same corporate financial institutions that are trying to get their own human capital to dress a certain way, to look a certain way, et cetera.
But then we'll pay her hundreds of thousands of dollars to do an ad during the Super Bowl while she just. Was twerking, shaking her ass on Instagram. So, it's just so interesting
to me how the politics... So, but that validates my earlier point. That validates my earlier point. Okay, okay, okay. Because what Cardi B did, was grow her influence in her space, right?
Where she can do those things. Correct. Where it is acceptable for her to do those things. She built her, she built her brand, her influence, her exposure, and her access. And now she shows up... And now she is a, she is a, she's a, she's an asset. She's an asset that, that people are willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for to do or millions of dollars, right, to do a commercial, right?
So, so she grew herself in her space in the way that is acceptable in that space. And now she's playing in these other rooms. And if, and, but if you notice, like oftentimes she shows up, I've seen Cardi B. And bootleg jackets. Right. And I'm like, Who is this? Right. Because she built her power and influence first, her brand.
I get that. I guess my, my main drive is like, what an oxymoron that you have these organizations who are trying to get you to soldier up, look a certain way, talk a certain way, be a certain way. Yes. But we'll literally go pay a celebrity or somebody with other types of influence Who is completely outside of what your cultural values and norms are Mm hmm,
but yeah, but again, that's capitalism, right?
That's absolutely totally totally and that's taking advantage gain
We keep playing the
game, but the game worked in her
favor. The game worked in her favor to, yeah, because she's, she's was able to build the influence and the credibility. So I guess, okay. So I guess the main takeaway from this is it's not necessarily about you having to feel like you need to show up as your unedited, most authentic, full self, right?
It's about
you achieving your goals, doing, doing what it takes. Right. In what, in the environment, because again, you just made a beautiful point, different spaces have different rules, which is why the empower yourself thing is, is an important for me, it was, it was, it was enlightening. And I had the opportunity to meet Harvey Coleman and tell him, you gave me such an invaluable map that allowed me to know when I could choose to step outside of the box, when I could choose to break the rules.
Right. And, and, and that understanding that. You've got to understand the rules first, right? And then make the choice whether or not you make the choice whether you want to play.
Or you make your own rules.
Or you, or you become an entrepreneur and you make your own rules, 100%, right? Right, right, right. But if you're playing on someone else's, in someone else's court with their ball, right, and their basket and their, you know, whatever, you know, then you got to play with those rules.
But no, you get to 100%. You get to, you get to then leave, but you did the same thing. Right. You built your career. You built some relationships. You got, you got some learnings and experience under your belt that, that enabled you to now have a company that has lasted six years. Right. And growing. Right. But you, it's.
There's a journey there. And I always, I, you know, in this day and age, things are so different. Right? I mean, I am, I'm a dinosaur in this place, right? In social media, social media has completely rewritten the rules. You are not a dinosaur, love. You are a dove. Oh, a dove. Thank you. I'll take it. I'll take it.
Um, you know, but the, the social media has rewritten the rules. Right. Um, and you see people absolutely becoming YouTube millionaires, right? And, and tick tock millionaires and all of that by being fully their authentic selves by going straight to the people, right? And connecting with them in really visceral at visceral levels, right?
And um, and doing all of that, right? But that's not my space. Right. Right. So remember I said, these were all feedback and, and insight and perspective and, you know, According to Convincita, and so my path has been a more conservative one. Yeah,
yeah. Good combo.
Okay, so let's get into our last segment, which is our Talk That Talk segment.
And this is where we tackle something taboo in the culture, or something that's going on in current events that we feel a way about. And so... We discussed talking about, let's go back to hubby vibes because I think this is like really important and I love to celebrate Latino love and just love in general, which is why I wore the hearts in corporate.
Yeah Hello. Oh my god. I still remember that day There were these Tiffany Hart earrings and I remember my boss at a time. She was a black woman tall. Yeah bald. Mm hmm and She was like V, you can't wear these earrings. The men are not going to respect you. First of all, there were these little, tiny, tiny, tiny
earrings.
You opened it, it's a crack
in the door. But it was like those little moments that happened to you in your career that, at the moment, you don't understand how powerful it is. But as you grow the wisdom and you go through the experience, you realize how significant that was. That was a turning point for me.
Like, I realized, like, Perhaps this is not where I want to be. I can't wear my little innocent heart earrings that represent truly who I am as a human being, right? Which is love, that's what I bleed with. Anywho, so we spoke about how our moms, our abuelas, our tías Mija, whoever you fall in love with, just always remember that they love you more than you love them.
Mmm. Right? I remember that discreetly. I still get that advice. So what do you think about that?
So that hasn't been my experience. Right. Um, and again, you know, you never know why the things that happen to you happen to you, right? Um, I met my husband in college and back then, uh, so we've been together a total of 30 years.
Okay, so 26 married, 30 years total and um, no one would have ever imagined that we would have lasted. You would not have looked at, you know, my husband or me and said, Oh yeah, this couple right here. Oh, this is the one. That's the solid. They're going to last. They're going to be, you know, they're going to still be madly in love 26 years later.
Right. Never would have, um, and what I, as I look back on the choices that we've made on the way that we've treated each other on, when I look at the sacrifices that we've had to make for this thing that we've built, what is very clear to me, right? Is that I love him just a little bit more than I love myself, but he loves me just a little bit more.
Then he loves himself. And so in that connection, we're whole because we're both willing to be vulnerable, to make the sacrifices and to put the other person first in the way that has allowed us. This is very specific to us, right? Has allowed us to build something enduring. Hmm. Yeah. Tough. I know it's heretical.
So would you give that advice? To your daughter.
Oh, she's done it. Would
you give me advice of? Yeah. Be safe means I guess somebody who loves you more than you love them. Oh, no.
No. Okay. No, I don't. I mean, listen, I'm, but I'm a hundred percent person. I'm either all in or I'm all out. Same. Right. And so it's a risk, right?
It's scary. But as I look back, I mean, clearly, clearly, you know, we can talk all the talk, you know, we can say all of the. You know, I make sure that, you know, he loves you, just, but the thing is, what do you want? Do you want, do you just want safety and stability and, and some people do and that's fine, right?
Then that's cool. That's cool. But do you want like a love where like, you know, that person is your ride or die? That that person has your back come hell or high water, that even if you were to split, that person would still have your back. That's what I want. Right? That's what I want. And so I've been willing to make those.
Those sacrifices, right? But again, I'm blessed because he's doing the same, right? And I don't know how you find that person. I, I, I still say, I don't know what in the world I did right for my husband to be my husband, right? Because it's the most important decision anyone makes is your partner in life, right?
Um, and, and we've been, we've been blessed to be each other's biggest cheerleader, worst critic. Um, but we are one
I love
it. Find your ride or dies y'all. Find your ride or dies. Carmen, thank you so much for being on Banking Acultura and lending your thought leadership and your wisdom and your energy and for just being. an amazing woman in my life now. I'm truly honored to have you in my life now. I'm so
honored to have you in mine.
This has been amazing. Thank you for building this, for building this platform that highlights the complexities of Latino culture and all of the beautiful twists and turns that we represent. Thank you. Thank you.
Te amo, mi amor. awesome.