Cracking the Code: Mastering the Art of Communication ft. Jessica Rivera
Did you know over 50% of couples avoid having difficult conversations, preferring to keep things light. Same is true for friendships. When we think about work, over 70% of employees ignore having difficult conversations all together leading to a decline in trust and engagement.
This week we're joined by Communications Expert, Jessica Rivera, as she breaks down how to become a better communicator so your relationships at home and at work become more meaningful. If you struggle with having difficult conversations, being a good listener, or want to enhance your communications skills, this episode is for you.
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Full Transcript:
Welcome back to Banking on Cultura. I am your host Victoria Jen Rodriguez and today I hope you guys are going to clutch your pearls. You're gonna have to have your edges maybe tightened a little bit, have the curls more tight because this conversation is long overdue and I'm really really excited to welcome our next guest.
So, our next guest is an international business coach, consultant, international keynote speaker, and prior to launching her own venture, she oversaw a $4 billion division at an international bank leading a high-performing team. She is the founder of Impact Leadership and JR Coaching, where she specializes in helping leaders and their teams become better communicators.
Welcome to the show, Miss Jessica Rivera.
I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much.
I'm excited to have you too, my fellow Boricua.
Yes, definitely.
And also New York native. Born and raised. Always love when I got my peoples in the house.
Born and raised. You know, it's funny. I tried to move out of New York so many times when I was in corporate. And every time they said, "Nope, we're going to give you a promotion to stay here. We need you in New York."
Really? Where were you thinking of relocating to?
Uh, well, one was California and the other one was Dallas only because that's where our corporate office was.
Okay, got it.
Yeah, Dallas. I mean, I was always afraid to live in a red state. I'm not going to lie.
That makes sense. That makes sense. And everything is big in Dallas. Everything is very big in Dallas. That's for sure.
So, we like to kick off each show with some bona. So, give it to us. Give us some tea. Give us some good—
You know, you you asked me like, "What do people talk about something that people don't know about?" And I'm like, "I'd be putting all my business in the streets. I put all my business in the streets."
Um, I think if something people don't know about me is probably that I was a horrible communicator. I do talk about this, but I was terrible. I wouldn't, Victoria, I wouldn't even give a toast at a family function. Like, I would not talk at all. Like, I was so afraid of speaking in public. Like, deathly afraid.
I remember when I had to give a toast. I gave a toast at my sister's wedding and we're in the limo and my brother-in-law says, "You know, you're going to have to give a toast, right?" I said, "Oh, absolutely not." And she said, "I told him you're not going to do it." And I said, "I'm not doing it." He's like, "Yes, you are. You have to for your sister." And I'm like, "Oh my god." So, I get up there and I'm like, "I'm going to try not to cry." And I started crying right away.
Oh my goodness. I would never— I would never think that of you because you're such a great speaker.
Thank you. Thank you. It's I've worked on it for many years.
Yes, you have. I would have never thought that you were a bad communicator or embarrassed like speaking in front of groups.
First of all, you said it right. I was a terrible communicator. Like, not only was I afraid of public speaking, I wasn't a great communicator because I was the type of person who would shut down. Like, when I was frustrated, I would completely shut down or I would blow up, right? So, I always wanted to be like, so I'm the second girl in our in our family, second child, and my sister was very by the book. She's so smart. She's so poised. And I was like the fun one, right? I'm like, don't worry about me. I'm not picky. I'm easy. And so I would let things brush off and everything's okay. It's okay. It's fine. I'm going to get through it. You know, I'm like the hard worker, the don't worry about it, the the easygoing one, but I would blow up.
And so when I was frustrated, I would either shut down or eventually that, you know, it's like a Coke bottle, right? Eventually it's going to overflow. And so that was me.
So I think you said it perfectly when you said I was not a great communicator. And I think that's what makes me an expert in communication now because sometimes, you know, uh your— what is it? Your test is your testimony. And so that's what makes me— I think that's what makes me such a great communicator these days.
I think you're right. Like I think the best experts become experts or the best trainers become the best trainers. The best coaches become the best coaches because they've been through some [ __ ] or they had to learn on their own, figure it out, come up with a formula, and then they go out and they teach it, right? And now you're an expert. Like I would never trust a chef that's never cooked before or had a bad meal because it's like how did you learn— or cooked a bad meal, right?
Right. Like how did you learn? You have to make those mistakes, right?
Yeah. So when we were prepping for this conversation, a really great theme came up and it was along the lines of how women work together and how they collaborate, but specifically how they communicate with one another. And given that you're a communications expert, I was like, you know what, girl, we going to break this all the way down because I know there's going to be so many folks in our audience, our listeners who are going to be able to relate to this. Because I've had collaborations that haven't gone well. I've had collaborations that have gone really well. And a lot of that boiled down to communication or lack thereof.
So, I would love to know how you approach difficult conversations because for a lot of people, they tend to avoid it. They're like, "Uh, difficult. I don't want to have that conversation. I'd rather not." They don't want the conflict and they brush it under the rug and then the Coke bottle happens, right? And then they blow up. So, can you talk a little bit about how women can approach— and I think the fellas can take notes on this as well— but I find like fellas, they just will tell you what it is. They don't care about your feelings. They don't care, which is actually not a good thing either though, right?
So, I think that there's two different schools of thought there. And you know, it's funny because I work with CIO, C-suite executives, and they still have a problem. I think everybody has a problem having a difficult conversation because who the heck wants to do that? Everybody— we want to be accepted, we want to connect, right? I don't think it's easy, but I say if it's not addressed you just make it more difficult. The conversation, that thing, does not go away.
And so I would say, you know, I have a framework that I like to use and go by and I actually spoke about it— you know, I speak about it on my Instagram page all of the time— which the framework is called DATA. And so I like for us to use our interactions with people as data points, right? Remove the emotion. It's like, oh, they said this about me and we get all offended and our little feelings get hurt. But when we remove it, we can look at it more objectively. And I think that's a great place to start.
So the first D stands for Discover. Let's figure out what we're actually feeling inside. Why are we triggered? Is it our ego? Is it because of a past relationship, a past situation? So I think that's the first place to start, is really sit back and understand what's going on for you. Because our body will tell us, right? It's like something starts happening within our body. So that's the first step: Discover.
And then A, I would say, is Actively Listen. We do not get taught to listen. And because sales is part of the reason why I'm also a great communicator— when you're in sales, and I worked in business-to-business sales for many, many, many years— you have to listen to your client to figure out not only what they're saying, but what do they truly mean? Not only the words that are coming out of their mouth, but what do they actually mean?
And I want to drive home this point because one of the things I decided to do— and maybe this is my bona to share— is I needed to become a better listener. Like I realized that about myself. I was very much engaging in conversation to respond. Or when somebody was speaking, already in my head I was thinking about, okay, well how am I going to respond to this? Especially when it's a difficult conversation. I found myself being on the defensive and having to have a response and a rebuttal.
And so last year I made a promise to myself to become a better listener because I wanted to enhance the conversations that I was having. And it's hard to be a good listener. So do you have any tips on like how to be a better listener?
Yeah, goes back to the D— Discover. Right. So, you hit it on the head though. I want you to think about your next conversation: Are you looking to explain? Are you looking to defend? Are you looking to justify? Whenever that happens and you stop and listen to yourself— listen to me here, because I want to be in your head the next time you have this conversation— Am I looking to defend? Am I looking to explain? Am I looking to justify? All of those things. You're probably not listening because you're trying to figure out, okay, wait a second, but this is how I feel.
And Stephen Covey teaches us that we should seek to understand before being understood. Now, that is really difficult and it takes time, but it can be done. It can be done. And in the very beginning, when I would have these conversations and I would go into like, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready to listen. This is going to be good. And it would go left. In the middle, I would literally stop the conversation and say, "Hang on one second. This was not my intention. My intention is to make sure we come to an understanding. My intention is to—" and this I'm thinking about when I was in corporate and with a team member— "my intention is to see you win. And so I want us to make sure that that's where we're at right now."
Because either I was in the middle of defending or I fell back into my old ways and the person— like the conversation just wasn't going the way I wanted. I would literally stop in the middle and say, "Hang on one second. What did you hear me say?" Because many times we don't hear what the person is saying. We're back thinking, "Oh, that triggered something for us," right? So we don't even hear what the person is saying.
And I also repeat back many times what I heard because I want to make sure I heard the right thing. So it's like, "Okay, this is what you said, but let me tell you what I heard." I do that all the time. Back then and I do it now with my coaching clients all the time.
Interesting. Interesting. And I think you also said something that I'm going to put into practice: asking the other person, "What did you hear?" Because it's really easy to assume that they get it right and they're able to digest your point without any bias or anything like that. But what I've learned is delivery is everything, right? Delivery is everything.
But also, people are not the best listeners as well. And so a great practice when you're having a conversation, especially a difficult conversation, is saying, "Hey, let's pause right here. What did you hear me say?" Just so you know that they are internalizing exactly what you meant to say versus maybe being on the defense and making up their own idea of what was said, even though you said something completely different.
Yeah. Yeah. So, let me— I'm going to get back to the framework, but then you also have me thinking about how to start and initiate a difficult conversation, because I want to go there too. Because the framework is more like you're in it already, right?
So you want to Discover how you're feeling. What's triggering, what's coming up for you. You want to Actively Listen. You want to make sure you actively listen.
Then T is you want to ask Targeted Questions. You want to make sure you're asking targeted questions. Asking questions will make your conversation so much better. And that's another thing we don't get taught. We don't get taught to ask questions. We get taught to defend. We get taught to explain. We get taught, "I want you to understand where I'm coming from." But no, let's start asking targeted questions to open up the conversation.
Then that's where we can articulate from a place of understanding all your data points. From a place of less emotion, now we can articulate our emotions. We can articulate how we're feeling. We can articulate our point from a place of really understanding where both sides are coming from.
Okay, so T stands for Targeted Questions. Targeted Questions.
Interesting.
Okay, let's go through the framework and then we're going to wrap it back to how to approach these conversations. So T is Targeted Questions and A is for what?
A is for Articulate.
Articulate.
Yeah, that's when you can truly articulate yourself and your value and whatever it is you're trying to say, even if it's just you're trying to make a point, right? So I think A comes last, which is articulating whatever it is you're trying to say. Then you can truly say it from a place of less emotion, right? Because sometimes we get super emotional for no reason. Think back about one time when you were emotional about something and then now you think about it, it doesn’t really matter as much, right?
Right?
So, we're just triggered or reeling about something. So, I think if we could just remember to Discover what's going on with us, what's coming up for us, then we make sure we're Actively Listening. Then we make sure we are asking Targeted Questions. Then we can Articulate ourselves.
Interesting. And I like that the A, the last A, stands for articulate yourself because you've already gone through the whole framework. So all those emotions, all those feelings, all those assumptions, any bias has been eliminated going through the framework. So when you get to articulation, it comes from a place of, I would say, more clarity.
More clarity.
Yes.
More understanding of yourself and how you want to deliver that, right? It's less about the other person. It's more about, okay, what am I trying to say? How am I trying to make them feel? What do I want the outcome to be? That's when you can truly articulate yourself.
Mhm. Do you have examples of when this has like gone wrong?
Well, yes. Right. When you asked about like collaborating with women and conversations and all of that. I'll give you a very specific example and again these conversations are not easy, right? So, I'm collaborating. It was three teams, you could say three teams in this conversation, and we're talking about money. So, money is always, you know, another difficult conversation.
And so we're talking about— we had done an event that was profitable.
Mhm.
And my team had felt that we had put in most of the work. And so I was like, "Okay, this is going to be interesting. Let's see how the other teams feel they should get. How should this pot get split?" Because originally we walked into it with, you know, 33, 33, 33. Everybody was going to get an even split.
So we get into the conversation. I said, "Okay, this is how much we made." And I asked the first team, "How much would you have charged for what you did?" Right? And that team said, "Oh, no, no, no. To be honest, we didn’t put in a lot of work. There's no way we're going to take any of the profit."
So I was like, "Okay, I like you girls. We can work together in the future. We can work together in the future." That made sense. That's what I would have done, right? That's what I would have done. So I respected it.
The next person said, "Well, whatever you think is fair." So, I said, "Okay, I want you to think about this." And so, all of us are on the phone. There's like six or seven women on the phone. I said, "I want you to think about this because what if I told you you get nothing? How would you feel then? What if I told you you get 10%? How would you feel then?"
And so I really wanted to be the example of: we have got to ask for what we want and we have to think these things through. Stop being okay with just getting the crumbs.
We interrupt our program to bring you this important message.
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Now, if you felt you put in a lot of effort and energy, let us know why you deserve 50%. I'm open to the conversation because maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you did put a lot more effort or energy into this and I just didn't see it or we didn't see it, my team.
So, she stood back and stood quiet and said, "Okay—" I said, "You don't have to give me an answer now, but I want you to think about it."
So, as we're getting off the call, the other group was like, "Oh my god, I just want to thank you for having these, like opening it up and having a real conversation about it because women are afraid to do this."
Listen, she had a number in her head. I know she— we all did. We all had a number. Like if somebody asked you that, for you to say, "Give me anything." Nobody just wants anything. So, I really wanted, number one, to be the example of: ask for exactly what the hell you want and know what you want.
Maybe she didn't know what she wanted. Maybe she didn't know what she deserved. But then say, "Okay, I need a moment to think about this. Let me think this through." But I don’t want us to be okay with just getting the crumbs. I want us to think things through, understand what we want, and then ask for it.
Closed mouths don’t get fed, as we know. Period.
Uh, okay. So, how should we approach difficult conversations with people who don't want to have them? And I'm pretty sure, you know, this is personal and professional. Like if you're with your boo and they're tired of maybe having the same conversation over and over again, but there hasn’t been a resolution. So someone feels like they need to continue to bring it up. It's like, I know I don’t want to have this conversation anymore. Like, yo, let's nip it. We're done.
And then in a professional setting, right? I remember when I was working in corporate, yo, there was this one chick, yo, she would get under my skin. Under my skin. Okay? Because I just felt like she was always out for me. Like she was always out for me. And I also felt like she was fake as [ __ ]. And that really boils me because it's like just tell me what it is. Like stop with the passive aggressiveness. It drives me crazy.
And I remember trying to have conversations with her where I thought we had come to like a solution and we got it. We're good. We're on the same page. Then I would hear through the grapevine that she's still talking [ __ ]. And I'm like, yo, this is like so annoying. And it was so difficult to come to an understanding with her and that relationship kind of fizzled out because it was like, all right, I can't, I don't want to do it anymore.
So, how do you approach those types of situations, understanding as a communications expert how significant communication is? Like, how do you approach that when people don't want to have the conversation with you?
Yeah. Okay. So, you just triggered a memory in my mind. So, I'm going to give an example. Let's go work first. Okay. So, there was a situation where there was a woman and I don't know if she felt threatened by me or something, but something was going on in the background and I didn't know what it was because sometimes I'm oblivious. I'm like everybody's great and everybody loves everybody and, you know, I live in La La Land.
But I remember one incident where— but you could feel it when something's off. Something's off.
So, something—
I thought that’s that woman's intuition.
Yeah, definitely. Can't ignore that. So, I felt something was off, but I said, "Okay, maybe I'm wrong." And then I heard— I forgot what I heard. So, I said to myself, "Okay, I'm going to address this." So, I pulled her into an office and I said, "Hey, I really don't remember the situation, but I remember asking her point blank. I understand. And I heard that X, Y, and Z. You said X, Y, and Z.
And she says, "No, I didn't say that."
I said, "Well, I don't know if you did or not, but this is what I do know. When we were together in this situation, I felt like something was off. So when I tell you that raw, just raw, this is exactly what happened. This is exactly how I felt. Tell me if I'm off because I know I had that feeling for a reason. I've never had that feeling before with you. There's something off and I want to make sure that we put it on the table now because I don't want this to continue."
So it really starts with your intention. I think we have to understand what our intention is first. And so I'll say this. In the very beginning, I remember having a conversation and it went left. And I asked myself, what was my intention? And my intention is I wanted to make that person feel bad for what they did. That’s not— the conversation is never going to go the way you wanted.
So I think we have to be honest with ourselves first. What is it that— what's your intention? You want to make them feel guilty. You want to make them feel bad. You want to manipulate. Let's be honest. We've all been there before. But those conversations are not going to go the way you want it. They're going to give you the BS answer so that the conversation can stop. Or who knows how the conversation is going to go.
But when I started understanding, okay, well, what's my intention in this case? My intention was I want her to know that I know. And I want her to know this is not going to happen this way anymore. I want us to have open and honest dialogue. You have a problem with me, come to me. Let's have a conversation. Like none of this is a big deal.
Mhm.
Right. And so really that was my goal with her. I'm going to let you know: I know what happened. I know something is off. Let's have a conversation about it. And the next time you have an issue, instead of going to somebody else, come to me, babe. Let's have a conversation. We're both grown adults here.
And our relationship did get better after that. Much better.
So my goal is always like we don't have to be friends, right? We're working. We just have to have respect for each other. And so I'm not the type of— I don't engage in gossip. I'm not going to gossip about you. I want us to just have a nice working relationship. So come to me if there's an issue and we can talk about it. But that also takes me being open and me not being triggered.
And listen, whatever— I don't remember what she said about me, but I remember thinking, is this girl crazy? Right? But I mean that was like a hot second. But, you know, before I may have been triggered like why would she say that about me? Why this? Why that? And it's like, who cares and who knows? Let's just work together.
Okay. So, it sounds like that's a strategy, right? That's a play for you to check yourself and understand what your intention is because the likelihood of that conversation being successful is greater.
Okay. Well, the strategy and the play is always to check yourself first. That's always the strategy and the play— to understand where you are coming from first because you're the only person you can control. And when you can say, "Okay, you know, I'm not going to get emotional." People get offended. Like we get offended, right? Our little feelings get hurt and then we want to be mad and we want to complain and we want to criticize and we want to compare. None of that is helpful. None of it is helpful.
Okay, so we check ourselves, right? Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Hello. Oldie but a goodie. If you know, you know.
Okay, but what happens if a person is still not open to having a conversation? Like they're just not receptive.
Well, I think in a workplace typically, you know, they're going to play nice, right? They're going to play nice. And I think you have to just not care about everybody liking you and not wanting to be friends with everybody.
Mmm, that part.
It's okay. You're not for everybody. I'm not for everybody. It's fine. Like, everybody's not going to like you. And by the way, for example, I had somebody unfollow me that I know, right?
Not the unfollow. The audacity.
Isn't it crazy that like now it's like that is the ultimate— like you're dead to me. You're dead to me. Apparently I was dead to her.
But I'll say this. I will say this. I'm not going to lie. My little feelings were hurt for a second because I was like, what did I do to her? Like I didn't do anything to her.
But I say this: if I trigger you, unfollow me, babe. Like, unfollow me. I know I didn't do anything wrong. But if I trigger you for whatever reason, I'm okay with it. And I wish you well. And I'm going to wish you well from afar, you know.
And I actually did run into her and we were very nice and cordial and it was fine.
Um, but did you ask her?
No, because I don't care. Because, you know, what her reasons are, her reasons. And she's entitled to them.
Mhm.
Mhm. So no, I didn't ask her and I don't want to make her feel uncomfortable and I don't want to make her feel like she did anything wrong because she didn't. She didn’t do anything wrong. She's completely entitled to unfollow me. She's entitled to feel however she wants to feel. The day she wants to address it with me, whatever her issue is— because I have zero clue— I'll be more than happy, more than happy to address it or have a conversation with her and maybe be friends with her again. I don't know exactly what happened, but I am completely okay with that.
Okay. Interesting. Uh, the growth. The growth, honey. The growth, darling.
But let's talk about a personal relationship.
Okay. Hey, let's get it.
Let's talk about a personal relationship. Because I had one where I continued to say, "Listen, if we don't address this, it's going to get worse." And they ignored me. And I said, "I want you to know—" I stopped and looked you right in the eye. "I look you right in the eye. I want you to know this is going to become a problem if we do not address it."
They let it go. It became a problem. It became a problem. And by me saying it became a problem— this happens for me, and I think for everybody. It happens like this, right?
Okay, there's a problem now. We're getting a little further. We're getting a little further. And little by little, you start chipping away at the cracks in the relationship. And we can think any relationship— pick family, pick a lover, pick whoever— it starts with one little crack. And if you continue to allow that to happen, it gets bigger and bigger, right?
And for me, I decide to detach, detach, detach. And then when you want to bring it back, now I'm pissed because the way I see it is this: if I have to continue to reel you in and say, "Hey, we need to address this. Hey, we need to address this," it's too much effort and energy for me at this point in my life. My relationships are easy. Every single relationship I have in my life is easy. My girlfriends, my parents, my kids— like every relationship in my life is easy because I want to address the issue. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about how.
I'm solution-based. I don't care what happened before. Solution. How do we move forward? How do we move forward? But if I have to continue addressing the same issue, I'm exhausted.
Mhm.
I'm done. My cut-off game, babe. My cut-off game.
I think this happens a lot in relationships, right? Because if your partner is not a good communicator or is not comfortable communicating, you're going to constantly run into those walls with each other. So I wonder, like, how can people— I don't know. I guess it boils down to like people got to want it, right?
You have to want it. But listen, in a marriage, I think that's a completely different scenario and situation, right? I think in a marriage it takes two. And I've seen— I'm around people that have long-term 20-year marriages and it's work, right? And communication is, you know, a keystone of every relationship.
And so one person— yes, you both have to want it, but I think one person can fix it in my— what I've seen. Because when you start changing you, and when you start giving someone else what you're looking for— so you're looking for more love, give the person more love. Looking for more appreciation, give the person more appreciation. Naturally, naturally, people start coming around. That relationship does start to change.
And I've seen it actually even in myself, in my relationship, even with my kids. Like I remember when I first, first started working on myself. I remember asking them, I asked them, "What could I do better?"
And they were so used to me telling them what to do, they automatically started saying, "Well, we could do this better. We could do this better."
I said, "No, no, no, no. I'm asking what I could do better."
And they were like, "Oh. Um, well, you—" at that point I had already started like working out and stuff and they swear that me working out made me calmer, which it did. I was less crazy.
So they were like, "Well, you've been a lot better lately."
Whatever.
But it made them start thinking. And guess what? It made our relationship better because now they're like, "Oh, she's working on her. It's not only about what we're doing wrong. She also knows she has to work on herself."
So it's like little things like that. I do feel one person can help move that relationship forward, but it takes a lot of work and effort and energy on your part. Because when you realize you're the problem, you can also be the solution.
We interrupt our program to bring you this important message.
Ooh, this is really good. You should know about this. So, I don't know about you, but I've been known to procrastinate—especially when things scare the hell out of me. The fear alone would have me stuck, overwhelmed, confused, and full of self-doubt. And don't even get me started on the imposter syndrome.
Okay. Okay. After getting laid off, not once but three times, honey, I realized that the security blanket that I made up in my head was just an excuse because I didn't really want to bet on myself.
The corporate benefits that had me in that headlock, girl—huh—they went out the window once my job decided that they no longer needed me. "It turns out that I'll save a whole nickel if I cut your salary completely."
The truth is the only security blanket guarantee is the one that you create for yourself. In other words, until you start a business, you will always be at the mercy of a company's headcount, and you will never have complete control over your time—which means you'll be renting out your thought leadership and helping build someone else's dream instead of your own.
If you've been waiting for a sign, this is it. Don't you think it's time you stop playing small and tap all the way into your powers?
Click on the link above or below this video to learn my three-step process—the exact three steps that I took to make the transition from corporate to entrepreneurship. And this is helpful even if you don't know what type of business to start and have only one source of income.
And this is absolutely free. It is my gift to you. I want you to win. It's winning season. In fact—what's that? It smells like winning season.
Okay, so tap in and I'll see you inside the training. Let's go.
Wow, that's like a bar right there. When you realize you are the problem, you can also be the solution.
Yes, girl. Woo. I like that.
Okay. And I also like what you said, because I think this is a great takeaway for people: if you are sensing the tension, the friction—be the change you want to see. That's it.
Right. Because if you shift your behavior and you start showing up differently, or even when you ask your kids, "Hey, what do you think I can do better?"—like you're already signaling, "Hey, I respect you. I respect your opinion. I want to do better for us, for you, for this relationship, for this project, whatever it is."
I think that level of vulnerability goes a really long way.
Yeah. I mean, when you talk about vulnerability, that's another thing I was terrible at. That's another thing I was terrible at. I hated showing a vulnerable side.
Um, but you also grew up in sales and worked within a male-dominated industry. So I can see how you would almost feel—and I'm assuming right now—but like you need to position yourself as this authority: take me seriously, I'm nobody to play with kind of vibe. And so the vulnerability part was like, "Let's put that to the side."
Yeah. I think sales just enhanced that part of me because I think I was always like that. I think a lot of that has to do with me having a kid at 19 and me feeling like I needed to prove to myself and to everybody else that I could do it. Because that wasn't normal in my family—to have a kid so young and out of wedlock.
So I think that had to do with it. And then when I went into sales in a male-dominated industry, whatever Brooklyn and Queens gave me as far as being aggressive, that actually worked in my favor.
But yes, definitely. Shout out to Brooklyn and Queens. Shout out.
Nobody— I was like, nobody wants to see my Brooklyn side.
No, but the fact that you had a baby at 19 years old. Yes, girl. And then you had another son, right? At 27.
At 27.
And guys, if you are just listening, make sure you check out the YouTube so you can see how gorgeous and fabulous Jessica is. And do you mind if we share how old you are?
Well, I'm, you know— Yeah. No, of course. I don't care. I'm 48 years old. I'm about to be 49 this year, girl.
And fine. And fine.
And the reason why I love bringing this up whenever we're in conversation is because I'm in awe—because so many women and men feel like it's too late to start something new. It's too late to reinvent themselves. It's too late to leave their job and double down on their own business. It's too late to grow as an individual. And they just get stuck.
And I love that part of your story where you were like, "F that. Yeah. I'mma do me, you know?"
So I remember Judge Judy—like I don't know how old I was—but her saying that she didn't get on TV until she was in her 50s. And I remember her saying, and I don't remember how old I was, maybe in my 30s, like, she had a whole new career after 50, after she spent so many years in family court as a judge.
And I remember thinking back then, like, oh, okay, that means that I could always have another career, right? And I was happy. I was happy in corporate for many, many, many years. I loved climbing the corporate ladder. I loved hitting a new goal.
But once I hit the one I wanted for so long and I was in it for a couple years, I was like, "Oh, I don't know if this is for me. I don't know if I want that next position. I felt like I had more to give and more to serve and more to do."
And the fact that, you know, I grew up in the command-and-control era of leadership— that did not resonate well with me. And I definitely did not want to become that leader, which I'm sure I was at one point when I first became a leader.
But then through self-discovery and growing and becoming a better communicator and wanting my team to grow and my team to be happy, but also holding them accountable—all of those things really helped me understand: oh wait, I wish I could teach this to everybody.
I know what it was to be under a leader where I loved my job but I was so unhappy with my leader. And it felt crushing. It felt soul-crushing, right? And so I knew what that felt like and I didn't want that for anybody else.
Also, shout out to you, because a lot of women are not comfortable sharing their age. They're very hesitant because we live in this culture of ageism and young is the vibe. And so they would keep that to themselves.
And I think it's really inspiring for other women to hear women share their truth in that way because it lets them see, like, okay, it's not too late. No, it's never too late to reinvent myself. It's never too late to try something new. It's never too late to leave that dusty ass man that's treating you wrong. It's never too late to leave that job that doesn't respect you, that's not getting you paid, that's not giving you the promotion.
It's never too late. Like you can always do you at any moment. So I appreciate you for sharing that.
Okay. So let's get into the Talk That Talk segment, where we address something taboo in the cultura. And you had shared with me that you've had multiple experiences where you felt like you were more received by the Black community than you were from the Latino community. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Yeah. So, so I'll say this. I remember a time where I definitely felt ashamed or shamed by Latinas specifically because I didn't speak Spanish well, right? Or I would say I didn't—I would always tell people I don't speak Spanish at all because I didn't want to give them my little broken Spanish that I do now to entertain myself and my parents and others.
We speak Spanish. We speak fluent Spanglish on this show. You are welcome to throw out a pero por lo que sea, whatever you need to do, you can do that here.
Exactly.
But, you know, I remember—and I was telling you when I was first in sales—and I always say I'm like a shy extrovert, right? I don't feel really comfortable going up to strangers, but I do love being around people.
So I'm in this huge room, like 300–400 people, and I didn't really know anyone. And then my mentor walks right by me and I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'm in this alone."
So I make a beeline straight to the bar, right? Where else am I going to go? I'm going to go get a drink.
And the first person that comes up to me is this Black girl from Arkansas. And she's like, "Oh my God, I love your outfit." And I was like, "Thank God somebody's talking to me."
And so I just felt like, "Okay, perfect. I'm in the other category." Right? Which—that's how I've always felt though, because I grew up in Brooklyn. And on my block it was like: you were white, you were Black, or you were Puerto Rican. That was it. There was nobody else.
And I grew up in a family where it was like open-door policy. My house was the party house. The guys came over, the girls came over. It didn't matter what color you were. Didn't matter if you were straight, gay, whatever. My parents were just so accepting of everybody. So that's just my mindset.
And so I didn't understand when I then moved to Queens, like the shame around not speaking Spanish or not eating a certain way or whatever.
And so yeah, I think specifically when George Floyd—when the George Floyd incident happened—somebody reached out to me, a Dominican girl, and was like, "Oh, can you believe that the Black community wants our support now? Meanwhile—" I forgot whatever it is that she said.
And I'm thinking to myself, "She must not realize that my son is half Black, but okay."
And I said, "To be honest, I've always felt more accepted by Black people than I have by some Spanish people." That's just the truth. That's just been my personal experience.
And especially being Puerto Rican—it's like, you go to the island, you see people that look Black, you see people that look blonde and blue-eyed, you see people that look like me, you see people all over. To me, it was just, we're all together.
And as a matter of fact, I remember specifically a Dominican person telling me that they didn't like Puerto Ricans because Puerto Ricans act like they're Black.
The beef between Puerto Ricans and Dominicans kills me. Like it kills me.
It's true. But I will say most of my girlfriends are Dominican these days. So, so I love them. I love them.
Yeah. Well, I think a lot of that comes from preconditioning.
Right. Absolutely.
What our parents had to go through and what they were taught from their grandparents. And if you think about just the history of colonization and how Dominicans were treated because they tend to be more dark-skinned, and how our parents were preconditioned to believe that white is right.
And so that's how I think it started and stemmed from. And it was passed down from generation to generation.
Right. And now I love where we are because so much history is being presented in ways like it never has been before. And even with George Floyd, a lot of Latinos had to educate themselves about their own history, right? And how we are more alike than we are different.
Oh, 100%. I say that all of the time. I mean, in every single aspect, not only us as Latinos, but humans are more alike than they are different. And so, you know, society tells us to put each other in different boxes and, you know, women are here, men are from there. Men have insecurities, women have insecurities, men have ego, women have ego, right? There may be, of course, nuance and differences.
And I think the more we can not only respect our differences, but value our differences, that's where true innovation comes from. That's where collaboration can come from. That's where the new best idea will come from.
It's interesting that you said that you felt more welcomed from the black community versus the Latino community. And I wonder how much of that had to do with maybe your own insecurity of not speaking Spanish and maybe not feeling as closely connected to the cultura. So maybe you leaned more towards the black community.
Well, I will say this.
We interrupt our program to bring you this important message.
Ooh, this is really good. You should know about this. So, I don't know about you, but I've been known to procrastinate, especially when things scare the hell out of me. The fear alone would have me stuck, overwhelmed, confused, and all types of self-doubt. And don't even get me started on the imposter syndrome.
Okay. Okay. After getting laid off, not once, but three times, honey. I realized that the security blanket that I made up in my head was just an excuse because I didn't really want to bet on myself. The corporate benefits that had me in that headlock, girl, huh, they went out the window once my job decided that they no longer needed me. It turns out that I'll save a whole nickel if I cut your salary completely.
The truth is, the only security blanket guarantee is the one that you create for yourself. In other words, until you start a business, you will always be at the mercy of a company's headcount, and you will never have complete control over your time—which means you'll be renting out your thought leadership and helping build someone else's dream instead of your own.
If you've been waiting for a sign, this is it. Don't you think it's time you stop playing small and tap all the way into your powers? Click on the link above or below this video to learn my three-step process, the exact three steps that I took to make the transition from corporate to entrepreneurship. And this is helpful even if you don't know what type of business to start and have only one source of income.
And this is absolutely free. It is my gift to you. I want you to win. It's winning season. In fact, what's that? It smells like winning season. Okay, so tap in and I'll see you inside the training. Let's go.
I wouldn't say that I don't feel connected to Hispanic culture. To me, cultura—kura. Yeah, we learned his Spanish. Okay. Uh, I wouldn't say that at all because I think that, not I think, I know that I'm very connected, right? As far as food, as far as music, as far as even just the second I get to Puerto Rico, I feel like, oh my god, I'm home. I love it.
Swag, darling. I mean, you have that. I'm Latina all the way, right? All the way. Please, at corporate they'd be like, "Oh, wow." The girls will be like, "You really know how to work those curves." I'm like, "Whatever. Whatever. I don't know what the hell that means, but yeah, I was born this way, boo."
Anyway, so yeah, I'm definitely connected to—but I'm also super connected to hip-hop culture, right? I grew up in the '80s and the '90s, and I grew up in Brooklyn and then Queens, and I'm connected to hip-hop culture. I'm connected to, you know, Marc Anthony, the Hispanic culture, the salsa, the all of it.
But what I don't want to do is be put in a box, right? And so I have tons of girlfriends that are Latinas. But am I connected to both? I feel like I'm connected to both. I feel like I'm connected to both cultures, right? And so I think the more we can just appreciate people for where they are and meet them where they are, then it's just easier. Then we stop putting labels on people, we stop saying, "Oh, they belong in this box because they were raised this way." Then we let them just be—just be.
Mhm. I think that comes very natural, especially if you grew up in New York and you grew up in the '80s and '90s. We usually were like in the same neighborhoods, right? We went to the same schools. At least for me, we hung out at the same. Same for me as well. Like we hung out at the same schools. So there's kind of like this affinity there because we grew up together.
So it's very easy for you to attach yourself to both cultures. And also because New York is the birthplace of hip-hop, argue with your mama. And so it's very easy, I think, for New Yorkers in particular, and Puerto Ricans even more so given our history here in the city. So I could see how that could be the case.
And I too have a very well-rounded network. Like I have a lot of Latinas in my network, but I also have a lot of amazing black women in my community that show up, show out, support me. Latinas as well. But I do feel that it's interesting how Latinas interact with each other versus how black women interact with each other. It's very, very interesting.
And it's not that, you know, Latinos are not supporting one another or black women are not supporting one another. It's just—it's like an observation that I've found. That like with Latinas, our competitiveness comes again from the preconditioning. And I think it really boils down to pleasing men.
I really do believe that this kind of like—you know, we were raised to cater to men. We were raised to be picked and chosen. We were raised to, you know, be this nurturing. We were raised to take care of all the men in our families. And I feel like that carries over in our personal and also our professional lives.
Where I feel like black women, they come from a different type of struggle where they've had to fight so much. And the way they were preconditioned is different from the way we've been preconditioned because they've had to deal with different types of injustices that we've had, even though we've experienced some of those same injustices, just at different times and I think at different levels. I think there's levels to it.
Agree. But it's always interesting to observe both communities. But I as well always felt welcome in the black community. I was just at a mastermind not too long ago and I was the only Latina there. I was the only Latina there. I was in a room full of beautiful black women. There were two fellas there as well—we must acknowledge them—but I was the only Latina there.
And I didn't feel like I didn't belong. I felt very at home. But I obviously noticed it. I was like, "Oh [__], I'm really the only Latina here. The only Latino period right here." And what I saw myself doing is I felt like this responsibility to educate.
So, you know, we're at this mastermind and they're talking about black media and they're talking about why it's so important to support black media and make sure you're reinvesting in black businesses. And I had to, when it was my turn to speak, raise the fact that by only investing just in black businesses, just in black media, we're actually doing a disservice to both communities because we're more powerful if we collaborate versus if we continue to kind of feed this tension that exists between the two communities.
And so I said like while you're doing that, also invest in Latino businesses and Latino media because we are more powerful together. But also, there's plenty of us that support each other, right? There's plenty of us that support each other. So let's help you break down the silos and the barriers and vice versa and like imagine where we could be.
Would you agree with that?
Oh, I would agree with that wholeheartedly. And I think if we stick back on the cultura, part of the problem is that we don't support each other. Like I have a very good friend of mine who's in Hollywood, and they're Dominican actually. And part of the problem is media doesn't know where to put us, right?
Because we're not exactly black. We're not exactly white. Where do they put us? And the only thought that they have is Mexican. And so when you think about the way Dominicans look, the way Puerto Ricans look, the way all the other Hispanic communities look, they don't know where to put us. Because people don't know or they don't realize that we’re out here. We have a dollar. We’ll pay money. And we want things that represent us.
Now, I think the tide is changing when you look at movies like Transformers, where the star was Puerto Rican. When you look at things like different movies and even music, I think Bad Bunny has really helped move that a little bit more forward and push it forward—when he's speaking Spanish on a Grammy stage, right? Things like that.
So, I think if we could start somewhere, it would be number one: support our own projects and our own people instead of saying, "Oh, well, that's a Mexican project. I'm Mexican, so I'm going to support only that. That's a Dominican project, I'm not going to support that project," or whatever.
So I think number one, we have to support ourselves, you know, our own culture. But then also, like you said, we're already supporting each other. Why don't we collaborate more? But we are underrepresented in media, in government, in C-suite. We're underrepresented everywhere.
So when you think about—I'll tell you a story. When Hillary and Barack were running against each other, my son is half Puerto Rican, half black, and he was little, however old he was in '08. And I'm like, "Oh, who do you want to win? Who do you want to win?" We're looking at television. And he's like, "Oh, I want him to win." I said, "Why?" He’s like, "Cuz he looks like me."
Representation matters, right? Representation matters.
And so if I wanted to get to the C-suite and there's nobody up there that looks like me, it's like—who do I go to? Who do I reach out to? It feels like, I don't know if they're going to get me. I don't know. And then you see someone who is Hispanic in the C-suite level, then you're like, okay, let me see if I can reach out to him because he'll probably be more open. He'll probably be more understanding.
I mean, the truth is, on both sides, we're underrepresented. But Hispanics are definitely underrepresented even more so than black when you think about those three levels that I spoke about.
Yeah, I would totally agree. And I think during George Floyd, a lot of conversations that were happening behind the scenes in Latino communities and organizations that I'm a part of was, you know, "What about the Latino agenda?" Like, there's so many resources being piled into the black community—which is great—but what about the Latino agenda?
And I think that we as a community, to your point, there's so much complexity that exists within the community that we need to address first, right? Like you feeling this shame from Dominican women. And I think Dominicans and Puerto Ricans—the women in particular—they just be going at it for no reason. For no reason. For no reason.
I think it boils down to men, but that's just me.
But I think we have our own kind of areas for improvement in our community that need to be addressed first before we go and support other communities. Because I think that once we are solid—and I really respect the black community and how they've been able to do that, right? How they've been able to mobilize and organize. There's a lot of best practices that we can pull from that, right?
And I was going to say, you know what I love about them too? It's like when you're black, you're black, right? So even though you might be Jamaican, you might be American, you might be something else, they will rally with you. Where I feel like we really put ourselves in a box.
It's like, "Oh yes, but you're this and you're that."
And I'll say, you know, listen, I want to just be clear. I love my Dominican girls. Like all my good friends are Dominican, so I don't want them to kill me after—all the Dominican ladies coming at you in the comments. I love them. I love them. I love them.
And actually they're the ones who helped me get my Spanish a little bit better. Not that it's great, but they have helped me.
But I love that about the black community—that it's like, "Oh, my son is half black, half Puerto Rican. He goes to something, he's going to get pulled right in," right? And I love that about them. Whereas we're like, "Oh, you're Colombian, you go that way. Oh, you're Puerto Rican, you go that way. Oh, you're this, you go that way."
I hate that about us. And I just want us to come together as women, as Latinas. I want to be able to support the black community, the white, whatever—I want to support women in general. But I want to double down and double click on Latinas.
Yeah, I love that. And you're doing that by being the CEO of Dream Lab. And you guys have a huge event coming up. So tell the people about your event that's coming up.
Yes. It's so exciting. So, it is the fifth and final Dream Lab Self-Made Mujer Conference, where we're talking all about living your wildest dreams. And to your point earlier, we want to remind women—and people, but women specifically—that it is not too late. Being 35, being 40, being 45, like you, it is not too late. It is only the beginning.
And I don't know about you, Victoria, but me, like I told you, I'm 48, about to be 49. I had an amazing year last year in 2023 and I feel like I am just scratching the surface.
I love that. And where can people find more information about the Self-Made Mujer Conference?
Selfmade. Selfmade.
Okay, the Self-Made Mujer Conference. Where can they find more information? When is the event happening?
So the event is happening March 23rd in Englewood, New Jersey. And they can feel free to DM me at Coach Jessica Rivera on Instagram or on our Instagram @the.dreamlab.
Okay. But there's a website where they can go and get tickets?
No, well, the tickets are right in the link in the bio.
Link in the bio. Okay, got it. We got to make it clear for people so they can find this, right?
My bad. My bad.
Okay, amazing. And I'm looking forward to that conference.
Yes, you will be there for sure. I cannot wait. So come and check us out at that conference in March. Come out and support and also meet some self-made mujeres. Like, hello, let's get it popping. Let's do this.
So you told them where they can find you on Instagram. Should they go anywhere else to connect with you?
Yeah, I hang out mainly on Instagram and LinkedIn. Those are both my two places that I hang out the most. But Instagram, you're going to know my whole life there. Like I lay it all out on the line over there.
Yes, I love it. I love it. I love your segments that you do in the car, usually when you're coming out of the gym or something like that, cuz you go in. And I love it.
Oh my god, yeah. Somebody told me that last night. I was at a speaking engagement and somebody said, "Oh my god, I love your car segments." I'm like, "Oh, I guess that's what they are."
Yeah, your car segments. Yes. Yes.
Take a ride with Jessica. Like it's so cute. You got to name the segments.
I think that's exactly what I came to last night. I'm like, I have to think of a cute little name for these car segments cuz it's like I go to the gym and I guess something triggers in me. I go to Starbucks, I'm like, you know what I'm going to say? I'm going to talk about this today.
Yes, I love it. Well, Jessica, thank you so much for being on Banking On Cultura. I feel like that D.A.T.A. framework is so powerful. I'm going to use that myself. I'm going to tell my clients to use it because I think it is a really good breakdown of how to address just being a great communicator, but more specifically having difficult conversations.
So, thank you for sharing all your wisdom and expertise.
Thank you for having me. I was so excited to be here and of course, always a great conversation. So thank you. Amor. Thank you so much.
All right, guys. Thanks for tuning in, and I'll see you on the next episode.
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